Joe Rogan, the most influential podcaster globally, is an HIV-AIDS denialist. Imagine the backlash if the six o鈥檆lock news were espousing this decades-old, harmful pseudoscience front and centre. Rogan鈥檚 audience is by far听larger鈥攈别听颈蝉听the mainstream media鈥攁nd he is teaching a generation of young adults that HIV is a harmless virus.
I 诲颈诲苍鈥檛 discover this fact on my own; I heard it on听, co-hosted by my friend and fellow skeptic, Michael Marshall. He and Cecil Cicirello listen to and criticize Rogan鈥檚 own popular show, much like how听Knowledge Fight听covers Alex Jones鈥� dying听滨苍蹿辞奥补谤蝉听(Jones says it鈥檚 coming to an end听, finally).
HIV-AIDS denialism is making a comeback. A history lesson is in order.
Infectious myths
In 2014, the hospital ward in Vancouver that was dedicated to patients dying of AIDS was morphed into a unit for chronically ill patients instead. Ward 10C at St. Paul鈥檚 Hospital used to bear witness to听; now, an HIV infection is no longer fatal for people with access to proper healthcare. Ward 10C is just one of many AIDS wards that were decommissioned because of our medical victory over the disease.
Acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) strips the body of its ability to fight off infections and cancer because of a dramatic reduction in a certain type of white blood cells (CD4 cells, specifically). Although it was first identified in 1981 due to rare types of cancer and pneumonia afflicting young gay men, its cause goes back to, as best as we can tell, the early 1900s. A family of often innocuous viruses infected primates in Sub-Saharan Africa, and evidence points to these viruses as having听听and mutated to give us two types: HIV-1, which causes the vast majority of AIDS cases, and HIV-2, which historically听. HIV is transmitted through sex or via exposure to infected blood, and a mother carrying the virus can pass it on to her child during pregnancy, childbirth, or via breast milk. HIV enters white blood cells and its genetic material is integrated into their own, birthing new viral particles and eventually causing the death of immune cells.
The phrase 鈥淗IV/AIDS denialism鈥� is often dismissed by the very people who receive the label, because they claim that they neither deny the existence of the HIV virus or of the disease known as AIDS. Ergo, denialism does not exist, much like how transphobia can鈥檛 be real because nobody runs away screaming from a trans person like they鈥檝e just seen a tarantula. But words are not always this literal. 鈥淗IV/AIDS denialism鈥� means rejecting the proven fact that the HIV virus causes AIDS. Deniers allege that the virus is harmless and that AIDS is caused by other things, specifically lifestyle choices.
The medical community does not simply听迟丑颈苍办听that HIV causes AIDS; it听knows听it beyond the shadow of a doubt. Virtually all people with AIDS test positive for the presence of HIV. Accidental exposure to the virus in laboratory accidents, via hospital work, or through an unlucky visit to the dentist have led to AIDS in the absence of any other risk factor. Extensive work in laboratory animals also shows, again and again, that HIV causes AIDS. Their epidemiologies are linked: where the virus surges, so does AIDS years later. To refer to HIV as a mere 鈥減assenger virus鈥濃�攁 jinxed bystander spotted at every crime scene鈥攊s to willfully ignore听.
The late 1980s saw the rise of the HIV/AIDS denialism movement, which placed the blame on the 鈥済ay lifestyle.鈥� Men were acquiring this severe immunodeficiency, according to deniers, because they were having too much sex or using too many recreational drugs, and were thus ruining their immune system. Here we see the seeds of the Make America Healthy Again movement鈥檚 victim-blaming: away from mainstream medicine, we are always told that health is 100% a question of personal responsibility, and thus illness is our fault.
The problem with blaming sex and drugs is two-fold. It fails to explain the multiple cases of AIDS due to accidental exposure. Did those scientists infected with HIV suddenly decide to snort cocaine and have unprotected anal sex every night? But also, it ignores the fact that the so-called gay lifestyle was also sometimes the straight lifestyle in the 1980s. Heterosexual men did hard drugs and were promiscuous back then, too鈥攁s has been amply documented in books and movies for people who weren鈥檛 around. AIDS in the Western world primarily impacted men who had sex with men, not because it knew their orientation but because anal sex more easily leads to tears, thus exposing one person鈥檚 blood to their partner鈥檚 infected fluids.
Poppers were also frequently fingered by HIV deniers. Poppers belong to a class called alkyl nitrites, drugs that used to be contained in glass vials that were 鈥減opped鈥� and inhaled, leading to anal sphincter relaxation and a feeling of excitement. These recreational drugs are used by men who have sex with men but blaming them for the significant lung damage seen in AIDS is silly. Poppers can cause difficulty breathing, including coughing up blood, and a blood oxygen issue known as听, where blood looks chocolate brown, but this is quite different from lung problems due to infections from a compromised immune system. Also, their use鈥攁nd the severe consequences from their use鈥攈as听听in the United States in the last decade, and yet the number of AIDS deaths in that country听听and keeps going down.
AZT does not cause AIDS, but AIDS denial can cause death
Conspiracy theories are about rejecting the mainstream and accepting alternative explanations, even when they contradict each other. HIV-AIDS deniers reject the virus as cause, so they embrace anything else. If poppers are exonerated, they can move on to AZT before circling back to alkyl nitrites when you鈥檝e forgotten the debunking.
AZT, also known as zidovudine, was the first antiretroviral drug approved for the treatment and prevention of AIDS. When HIV transcribes its RNA blueprint back into DNA, it needs to string together the four bases of DNA鈥擜, T, C, and G鈥攊n the right order: AZT听濒辞辞办蝉听like T but it acts as a stop. It鈥檚 like stringing beads together on a necklace but one of the beads only has one hole. It鈥檚 impossible to keep going. AZT continues to be wrongly blamed for AIDS, with deniers confusing cause and effect. You see, the sickest patients were getting AZT, therefore (according to denialist logic) the drug was causing the severity of their sickness. It is true that early dosages were too high and caused side effects, but the doses were quickly adjusted, the toxicity was reversed, and AZT to this day remains a drug in the anti-HIV armamentarium, though it is no longer the default therapy.
Denying the threat posed by a virus can have grave consequences. Much like the stories of COVID-19 deniers dying in the hospital from the infection, there 颈蝉听听of prominent HIV/AIDS denialists who have died听of AIDS鈥攁t the very least, of infections that are typical of the syndrome after having tested positive for HIV. That鈥檚 the problem with repudiating reality: it doesn鈥檛 go away.
罢丑别听Joe Contrarian Experience
Misinformation out of the mouths of a few select influencers can do monumental damage. Right now, a line can be drawn between at least four men when it comes to the chain of transmission of HIV/AIDS denialism in recent years: Peter Duesberg, Gavin de Becker, Robert F. Kennedy Jr, and Joe Rogan.
Duesberg, who died earlier this year, was a prominent cancer researcher who became a sort of patient zero for HIV/AIDS denialism in 1987, claiming in听听that retroviruses (like HIV) are probably harmless in humans and that HIV itself did not bring about AIDS. 鈥淭he disease,鈥� he wrote, 鈥渨ould then be caused by an as yet unidentified agent which may not even be a virus.鈥� Duesberg went on to become one of the leading figures of AIDS denialism, blaming just about anything but HIV as the cause of this pandemic.
In 2012, Duesberg was a guest on Joe Rogan鈥檚 podcast鈥攁n听听that is still available on Spotify, the company that paid Rogan a听听听of US$ 450 million. The year before, Rogan had called Duesberg听听That undeserved admiration allowed the researcher to spread his pseudoscience to an audience that may have been too young to hear it the first time around.
Rogan鈥檚 own HIV/AIDS denialism had been kindled. But as theorized by Marshall for听The Know Rogan Experience, two important ego-bruising events were necessary to feed the flames. First, Rogan received significant pushback for platforming Duesberg, calling it听听Second, his public use of ivermectin to fight off COVID-19 led to CNN anchors qualifying the drug as听听(which is only one of its applications). Rogan wondered if he should sue.
Ridiculed for endorsing a drug unproven (and later disproven) to treat COVID and which became a shibboleth for conspiracy-minded anti-vaxxers, Rogan began to espouse more radical positions against mainstream medicine, courting fringe figures and pseudomedical experts. Which is how he ended up recording听听last November with Gavin de Becker on why HIV does not cause AIDS.
If you have ever watched听Twin Peaks, you will recall Miguel Ferrer鈥檚 acerbic and brilliant forensic specialist: Ferrer鈥檚 performance was听, who had lived with him in high school following the suicide of his mother. De Becker, who does not appear to hold any college degree, is a security specialist who听. He is deeply embedded in Hollywood: he has helped celebrities deal with their stalkers, was a听听in the prosecution of O.J. Simpson, and听Beatles听George Harrison died in a house de Becker was renting for him so that the terminally ill musician could safely say goodbye to friends.
If your livelihood consists in being paranoid, we shouldn鈥檛 be surprised when that paranoia starts to creep into every aspect of your life, including healthcare. De Becker has written blurbs and forewords for several quack books, including Robert F. Kennedy Jr鈥檚听The Real Anthony Fauci, and when RFK Jr needed to let go of the MAHA trademark before stepping into office, who took it over? Initially, Del Bigtree, who then transferred it to听.
Rogan鈥檚 conversation with de Becker revived all of Duesberg鈥檚 misinformation, and it was Rogan himself who brought up HIV, 18 minutes from the start, drawing a parallel between the harm he believes the COVID vaccines did and 鈥渨hat happened during the AIDS pandemic with the exact same power structure.鈥� And there it was again: HIV 诲颈诲苍鈥檛 cause AIDS; AIDS was caused by poppers, and promiscuous sex, and alleged bowls of antibiotics made available to gay men at parties in the 80s; AZT had been a plague on AIDS patients; and wasn鈥檛 it weird that the disease never made its way to the heterosexual community? Except that it did. The share of HIV infections worldwide that happen because of men having sex with women 颈蝉听. In fact,听听of all HIV-positive people on Earth are women.
Repeat a lie often enough
One last bad argument we should highlight is the 鈥渄rug repurposing鈥� argument, because of how hypocritical it is. De Becker and Rogan accuse AZT of having been a failed cancer drug that was killing cancer patients, but since the pharmaceutical industry needed to profit from it, they gave it to AIDS patients and it somehow gave them AIDS. This is false. AZT听was听tested as a cancer drug and it 诲颈诲苍鈥檛 work in the laboratory. What little mention I could find in the scientific literature is that it was 鈥渦nsuccessful,鈥� and as far as I can tell, it was never tested in humans pre-AIDS.
Where does this lie that it killed cancer patients come from? I followed the citations, from RFK Jr鈥檚听The Real Anthony Fauci听to Peter Duesberg鈥檚听Inventing the AIDS Virus听to gay rights activist John Lauritsen鈥檚听Poison by Prescription: The AZT Story.听There is zero evidence that AZT killed cancer patients: in fact, Lauritsen himself admits that long-term carcinogenicity studies of AZT in animals were not completed鈥� because the drug 诲颈诲苍鈥檛 work as chemotherapy! But since, in the minds of these denialists, 鈥渃hemo is bad鈥� and because AZT acts as a stop in the assembly of a DNA molecule, they听assume听it must be lethal, with Duesberg repeatedly calling AZT 鈥渢oxic,鈥� 鈥渄angerously toxic,鈥� and 鈥渉ighly toxic鈥� in his book; his fellow conspiracy theorists simply parrot it. So much for 鈥渄oing your own research.鈥� (When the International Agency for Research on Cancer听听if AZT had听the potential听to cause cancer, it concluded 鈥測es鈥� for laboratory animals but that there was inadequate evidence in humans. It鈥檚 the dose that makes the carcinogen, and the agency put AZT鈥檚 potential for causing cancer in听听as aloe vera extract and pickled vegetables.)
It is wild that the repurposing of a drug during one pandemic (AZT for AIDS) is condemned by Rogan as careless greed while the repurposing of another during a later pandemic (ivermectin for COVID-19) is embraced as a trick 鈥渢hey鈥� don鈥檛 want you to know. Rogan, who thinks Pharma has an itch to scratch if a drug they developed can鈥檛 be used, doesn鈥檛 seem to know that听. What looks promising in mice uncommonly works in humans. This is normal.
The wrong dogma
It becomes clear during the podcast that the target of their ire and conspiracy-mongering is Dr. Anthony Fauci, who directed the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases during both pandemics. He is painted as the evil puppet master who unleashed a lethal drug on AIDS patients and who later was responsible for the double whammy of the escaped bioweapon in Wuhan and the fatal COVID vaccines. And who is the celebrated author of this grand conspiracy theory? None other than the head of the health services within the United States government, Robert F. Kennedy Jr, who penned听The Real Anthony Fauci, a book that, if its publisher is to be believed, sold over one million copies and whose third chapter is literally called, 鈥淭he HIV Pandemic Template for Pharma Profiteering.鈥�
In the book, RFK Jr labels AZT 鈥渢he most toxic drug ever approved鈥� and calls academic researchers 鈥減harmaceutical industry surrogates,鈥� there to act as 鈥渉igh priests of all [pharmaceutical] orthodoxies.鈥� This condemnation is shockingly ahistorical. The orthodoxy, pre-AIDS, was that retroviruses听诲颈诲苍鈥檛听cause harm in humans. This dogma听听for the medical community to recognize that HIV was indeed causing AIDS and to turn to AZT, an antiretroviral drug, as a potential treatment.
Now, the ramblings of one of the architects of the modern anti-vaccine movement are being regularly promoted on one of the biggest media platforms in the world:听The Joe Rogan Experience.
The Oprah Winfrey of Gen Z
We are witnessing debunked conspiracy theories being resurrected, like zombies, by powerful influencers who do not understand expertise and consensus. Rogan himself is drawn to credentialed contrarians: if 99 scientists agree that climate change is real, he wants to talk to the one guy who disagrees, especially if he鈥檚 employed by a respected university or has some trail of esteemed publications. The catch is that every university has its quack, and once-respected researchers can fall off a cliff (see听).
With generative AI, conspiracy theorists are bound to turbocharge their red-yarn sessions, much like how Umberto Eco predicted in his 1988 novel听Foucault鈥檚 Pendulum.听But like a paranoid operative, you must torture the AI until it confesses. 鈥淵ou know, quick note on ChatGPT and Grok,鈥� de Becker told Rogan and, by extension, his millions of listeners, 鈥渢he first answer you get will usually be the orthodox answer, the approved answer. You have to keep asking. You have to say, 鈥楲ook again,鈥� you have to push the thing. And then you鈥檒l get remarkable information that way.鈥� Given that AI agents are programmed to please the user, what de Becker proposes and Rogan silently agrees to is to boost motivated reasoning by turning AI into a mirror for our worst paranoid fantasies.
I will not be surprised if this episode leads to a rise in HIV/AIDS denial. Already, scientifically illiterate influencers raised terrain theory from a century-old grave as they claimed that viruses like the coronavirus don鈥檛 actually cause disease; it鈥檚 what you do to your body that leads to illness. Germ theory denialism and anti-vaccine propaganda have given us a rise in infectious diseases like measles, which can easily be prevented by immunization. This should remind us that, in 2000, the South African president cited Peter Duesberg鈥檚 work in his health policy, which resulted in the deaths of an estimated听听from AIDS.
How many HIV-positive folks will give up their treatment upon listening to Joe Rogan鈥檚 podcast or after hearing these ideas trickle down the social media ladder? Rogan is now the Oprah Winfrey of Gen Z, promoting dangerous deniers and acting as a major vector for health misinformation.
When we fail to learn about the past, we are bound to get seduced by revisionist history. But viruses don鈥檛 care about alternative facts.
Take-home message:
- Joe Rogan, the biggest podcaster in the world with an audience larger than major television news outlets, does not believe that HIV causes AIDS.
- Rogan has recently promoted a long list of thoroughly debunked arguments: that HIV is a harmless virus; that AIDS is caused by promiscuous sex and recreational drugs; that the first HIV medication was an old cancer drug that was killing cancer patients; and that heterosexual people don鈥檛 get AIDS.
